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	<title>Comments on: Is Democracy Feasible? (Reflections on the Gettysburg Address)</title>
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	<link>http://www.ashokkarra.com/2007/05/is-democracy-feasible-reflections-on-the-gettysburg-address/</link>
	<description>On Poetry, Politics and Philosophy - A Sketch, An Intersection</description>
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		<title>By: thag</title>
		<link>http://www.ashokkarra.com/2007/05/is-democracy-feasible-reflections-on-the-gettysburg-address/comment-page-1/#comment-3536</link>
		<dc:creator>thag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Sep 2009 02:59:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ashokkarra.com/?p=236#comment-3536</guid>
		<description>Ashok--

I like what you say here about the Declaration being the more universal of the two Founding documents; it is certainly true. Do you agree with Lincoln&#039;s assessment of the Declaration -- that it was the &quot;golden apple&quot; and the Constitution the &quot;silver frame,&quot;  the apple being made to sit in the center of the frame? It would seem extraordinary to say that the Constitution is simply an ordinary document, but I&#039;m not sure...If I remember correctly, Fred Douglass didn&#039;t connect the two documents together in quite the same way Lincoln did, and it seems like he felt the Constitution was intrinsically good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ashok&#8211;</p>
<p>I like what you say here about the Declaration being the more universal of the two Founding documents; it is certainly true. Do you agree with Lincoln&#8217;s assessment of the Declaration &#8212; that it was the &#8220;golden apple&#8221; and the Constitution the &#8220;silver frame,&#8221;  the apple being made to sit in the center of the frame? It would seem extraordinary to say that the Constitution is simply an ordinary document, but I&#8217;m not sure&#8230;If I remember correctly, Fred Douglass didn&#8217;t connect the two documents together in quite the same way Lincoln did, and it seems like he felt the Constitution was intrinsically good.</p>
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		<title>By: thag</title>
		<link>http://www.ashokkarra.com/2007/05/is-democracy-feasible-reflections-on-the-gettysburg-address/comment-page-1/#comment-2940</link>
		<dc:creator>thag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 02:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ashokkarra.com/?p=236#comment-2940</guid>
		<description>Ashok,

I thought you would find interesting the work of the (sadly popular) &#039;progressive scholarship&#039; being done on Lincoln right now. Garry Wills, for one, says in his book review of Lincoln that he did the nation &quot;the favor of being fruitfully wrong.&quot; 

In short, this guy would have sided with Judge Douglas in the debates, and it seems at least to me that this is all politically charged. By saying that Lincoln was wrong - albeit benevolently wrong - that the Founders really meant &quot;all men&quot; when they said it in the Declaration, the significance of the Founding can be marginalized by making the Washingtons and Jeffersons look like hypocrites. In that you have the ability to set up some weird sort of evolving notion of justice, as if Lincoln did not restore old principles but invented new ones. Thus history has been a happy unfolding of progress, each generation a little more liberal (and better) than the last.

Here is the link to Will&#039;s review:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22750</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ashok,</p>
<p>I thought you would find interesting the work of the (sadly popular) &#8216;progressive scholarship&#8217; being done on Lincoln right now. Garry Wills, for one, says in his book review of Lincoln that he did the nation &#8220;the favor of being fruitfully wrong.&#8221; </p>
<p>In short, this guy would have sided with Judge Douglas in the debates, and it seems at least to me that this is all politically charged. By saying that Lincoln was wrong &#8211; albeit benevolently wrong &#8211; that the Founders really meant &#8220;all men&#8221; when they said it in the Declaration, the significance of the Founding can be marginalized by making the Washingtons and Jeffersons look like hypocrites. In that you have the ability to set up some weird sort of evolving notion of justice, as if Lincoln did not restore old principles but invented new ones. Thus history has been a happy unfolding of progress, each generation a little more liberal (and better) than the last.</p>
<p>Here is the link to Will&#8217;s review:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22750">http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22750</a></p>
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		<title>By: Rich Rostrom</title>
		<link>http://www.ashokkarra.com/2007/05/is-democracy-feasible-reflections-on-the-gettysburg-address/comment-page-1/#comment-2377</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Rostrom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 07:18:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ashokkarra.com/?p=236#comment-2377</guid>
		<description>Re Jefferson, powers, and the consent of the governed. You&#039;re all overlooking a word: Jefferson wrote &quot;_just_ powers&quot;. Obviously, a government can rule without consent. There were in 1776 any number of &quot;oriental despotisms&quot; and arbitrary monarchies such as Russia that ruled by mere force. What Jefferson asserted was that it cannot do so _justly_. However wise or benevolent a ruler is, his authority is not morally legitimate unless those he rules have consented to his rule.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re Jefferson, powers, and the consent of the governed. You&#8217;re all overlooking a word: Jefferson wrote &#8220;_just_ powers&#8221;. Obviously, a government can rule without consent. There were in 1776 any number of &#8220;oriental despotisms&#8221; and arbitrary monarchies such as Russia that ruled by mere force. What Jefferson asserted was that it cannot do so _justly_. However wise or benevolent a ruler is, his authority is not morally legitimate unless those he rules have consented to his rule.</p>
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		<title>By: thag</title>
		<link>http://www.ashokkarra.com/2007/05/is-democracy-feasible-reflections-on-the-gettysburg-address/comment-page-1/#comment-2369</link>
		<dc:creator>thag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 00:41:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ashokkarra.com/?p=236#comment-2369</guid>
		<description>@ OSWebMaster:

I think that Ashok is right that Lincoln felt Jefferson might have been wrong that governments get power from their &quot;consent of the governed.&quot; Jefferson surely felt they should, of course, but consider Hamilton&#039;s contrast between our experiment of government by reflection and choice versus the old accident and force, then think of how a dictator gets his power.

So maybe it is not the case that Jefferson was wrong, but that governments typically did not have the consent they needed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ OSWebMaster:</p>
<p>I think that Ashok is right that Lincoln felt Jefferson might have been wrong that governments get power from their &#8220;consent of the governed.&#8221; Jefferson surely felt they should, of course, but consider Hamilton&#8217;s contrast between our experiment of government by reflection and choice versus the old accident and force, then think of how a dictator gets his power.</p>
<p>So maybe it is not the case that Jefferson was wrong, but that governments typically did not have the consent they needed.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.ashokkarra.com/2007/05/is-democracy-feasible-reflections-on-the-gettysburg-address/comment-page-1/#comment-1926</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 22:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ashokkarra.com/?p=236#comment-1926</guid>
		<description>Hi Ashok,

Great thinking on the Gettysburg Address.  I did not connect the &quot;four score and seven&quot; to Psalm 90, but once it was pointed out, it seems obvious.  I wonder if Lincoln did this consciously, or had just picked up the phrasing to be serious?  

The relevant verse is:

 10The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

This ties to the deaths at the battle and transcience of life.  

There is much more that may be mined here, but first I must be convinced that Lincoln made a conscious allusion to the Psalm.

jjvors from Digg


The whole Psalms speaks of God&#039;s greatness and eternity.  Interestingly, it was written by Moses.

Psalm 90 (King James Version)

Psalm 90

 1Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.

 2Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

 3Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

 4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

 5Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.

 6In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.

 7For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled.

 8Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.

 9For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told.

 10The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

 11Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath.

 12So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.

 13Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants.

 14O satisfy us early with thy mercy; that we may rejoice and be glad all our days.

 15Make us glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us, and the years wherein we have seen evil.

 16Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children.

 17And let the beauty of the LORD our God be upon us: and establish thou the work of our hands upon us; yea, the work of our hands establish thou it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Ashok,</p>
<p>Great thinking on the Gettysburg Address.  I did not connect the &#8220;four score and seven&#8221; to Psalm 90, but once it was pointed out, it seems obvious.  I wonder if Lincoln did this consciously, or had just picked up the phrasing to be serious?  </p>
<p>The relevant verse is:</p>
<p> 10The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.</p>
<p>This ties to the deaths at the battle and transcience of life.  </p>
<p>There is much more that may be mined here, but first I must be convinced that Lincoln made a conscious allusion to the Psalm.</p>
<p>jjvors from Digg</p>
<p>The whole Psalms speaks of God&#8217;s greatness and eternity.  Interestingly, it was written by Moses.</p>
<p>Psalm 90 (King James Version)</p>
<p>Psalm 90</p>
<p> 1Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.</p>
<p> 2Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.</p>
<p> 3Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.</p>
<p> 4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.</p>
<p> 5Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.</p>
<p> 6In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.</p>
<p> 7For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled.</p>
<p> 8Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.</p>
<p> 9For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told.</p>
<p> 10The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.</p>
<p> 11Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath.</p>
<p> 12So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.</p>
<p> 13Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants.</p>
<p> 14O satisfy us early with thy mercy; that we may rejoice and be glad all our days.</p>
<p> 15Make us glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us, and the years wherein we have seen evil.</p>
<p> 16Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children.</p>
<p> 17And let the beauty of the LORD our God be upon us: and establish thou the work of our hands upon us; yea, the work of our hands establish thou it.</p>
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		<title>By: The BoBo Carnival of Politics - Sept 14, 2008 Edition &#124; Driving the Left Loony -The Bobo Files</title>
		<link>http://www.ashokkarra.com/2007/05/is-democracy-feasible-reflections-on-the-gettysburg-address/comment-page-1/#comment-750</link>
		<dc:creator>The BoBo Carnival of Politics - Sept 14, 2008 Edition &#124; Driving the Left Loony -The Bobo Files</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 04:08:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ashokkarra.com/?p=236#comment-750</guid>
		<description>[...] presents Is Democracy Feasible? (Reflections on the Gettysburg Address) posted at Rethink., saying, &#8220;Jefferson and Lincoln both ground the concept of equality [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] presents Is Democracy Feasible? (Reflections on the Gettysburg Address) posted at Rethink., saying, &#8220;Jefferson and Lincoln both ground the concept of equality [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The BoBo Carnival of Politics - Sept 14, 2008 Edition &#124; The BoBo Files</title>
		<link>http://www.ashokkarra.com/2007/05/is-democracy-feasible-reflections-on-the-gettysburg-address/comment-page-1/#comment-744</link>
		<dc:creator>The BoBo Carnival of Politics - Sept 14, 2008 Edition &#124; The BoBo Files</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Sep 2008 17:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ashokkarra.com/?p=236#comment-744</guid>
		<description>[...] presents Is Democracy Feasible? (Reflections on the Gettysburg Address) posted at Rethink., saying, &#8220;Jefferson and Lincoln both ground the concept of equality [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] presents Is Democracy Feasible? (Reflections on the Gettysburg Address) posted at Rethink., saying, &#8220;Jefferson and Lincoln both ground the concept of equality [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Chambers</title>
		<link>http://www.ashokkarra.com/2007/05/is-democracy-feasible-reflections-on-the-gettysburg-address/comment-page-1/#comment-724</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Chambers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 06:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ashokkarra.com/?p=236#comment-724</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comment you left on my blog and the link to your posting. No matter how insignificant we think our blogs might be it&#039;s encouraging to know that others are reading them, even if only for a moment! :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comment you left on my blog and the link to your posting. No matter how insignificant we think our blogs might be it&#8217;s encouraging to know that others are reading them, even if only for a moment! :-)</p>
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		<title>By: isabella mori</title>
		<link>http://www.ashokkarra.com/2007/05/is-democracy-feasible-reflections-on-the-gettysburg-address/comment-page-1/#comment-601</link>
		<dc:creator>isabella mori</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 01:48:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>i just finished reading &quot;roots,&quot; the history of an african-american family, so this is particularly poignant to me.

you say,

&quot;something far more significant, encompassing all of mankind, transpired at gettysburg.&quot;

as a german-born person who has lived in canada for over 25 years, and thus is not that deeply connected to US history, i have to agree with you.  

of course it&#039;s a double edged sword.  lincoln&#039;s idea of &quot;the universal significance of the american enterprise&quot; is, unconsciously perhaps, what makes some people in the US think that this specific type of enterprise must, because it&#039;s universal, be carried out everywhere else.  

i really like how you investigate the idea of the proposition.  it would be interesting to delve even further into that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i just finished reading &#8220;roots,&#8221; the history of an african-american family, so this is particularly poignant to me.</p>
<p>you say,</p>
<p>&#8220;something far more significant, encompassing all of mankind, transpired at gettysburg.&#8221;</p>
<p>as a german-born person who has lived in canada for over 25 years, and thus is not that deeply connected to US history, i have to agree with you.  </p>
<p>of course it&#8217;s a double edged sword.  lincoln&#8217;s idea of &#8220;the universal significance of the american enterprise&#8221; is, unconsciously perhaps, what makes some people in the US think that this specific type of enterprise must, because it&#8217;s universal, be carried out everywhere else.  </p>
<p>i really like how you investigate the idea of the proposition.  it would be interesting to delve even further into that.</p>
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		<title>By: OSWebMaster</title>
		<link>http://www.ashokkarra.com/2007/05/is-democracy-feasible-reflections-on-the-gettysburg-address/comment-page-1/#comment-490</link>
		<dc:creator>OSWebMaster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 02:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ashokkarra.com/?p=236#comment-490</guid>
		<description>Hello - thanks for a thought provoking post.  At one point, when you said, &quot;that maybe Jefferson&#039;s notion that all governments derive their right from the consent of the governed is false,&quot; I wondered if you do believe that is false, and if so, on what premises do you make that conclusion?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;- Scott</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello &#8211; thanks for a thought provoking post.  At one point, when you said, &#8220;that maybe Jefferson&#8217;s notion that all governments derive their right from the consent of the governed is false,&#8221; I wondered if you do believe that is false, and if so, on what premises do you make that conclusion?</p>
<p>- Scott</p>
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